exsiliumlogs | i think, well why not, then stop for a coffee

Date & Time: 8/7/13, late afternoon after this conversation.
Location: a coffee shop
Characters: Armin Arlert (

blondtactician) & Sofiya Karimov (

legal_eagle)
Summary: Armin's never tried coffee, Sofiya offered to buy him his first cup.
Warnings: n/a

[Armin heads out into the rain still dressed in his uniform and green cloak, hood over his head. Miss Karimov described herself as dark haired and with a scarf, and even though her scarf is blue he finds himself unconsciously looking for Mikasa. Of course she's not here. All evidence suggests he really is the only one who knows about the world where humanity hides behind walls.

The only thing familiar here is the gray and the settled-in sense of despair. To the citizenry who don't fight, the war must seem both far away and horrifyingly personal, and completely impossible to win.

He must be looking grim, saddened when he appears at the coffee shop. He tries and fails magnificently at pulling off 'warm and friendly' when he approaches, and it definitely seems more like 'worried and nervous' as he clears his throat.]

Ah... Miss Karimov, is it?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Why?

[She tilts her head very slightly to the side.]

If someone threatens your life, say, do you have a moral obligation to defend it?

Everyone wants to defend their own life. It's natural to respond that way, at least in theory. [Because Armin has personally found that in face of the very real and immediate specter of their demise, some people don't know how to fight and live. Some people freeze and just cry. Some people lose their minds and die trying to save or recover those who were lost. Some people's knees give out, or they can't reach far enough to snatch their friend from the jaws of death.

Some people become monsters.]

But living like that is just following instincts. Looking after only yourself, worrying about only the needs you need met, worrying only about your own life and thinking that's alright, and if you do that, things will always be that way - that kind of ignorance is poison. [This is something Armin believes with every cell of his body - a core thought he's held onto since he was a young child.]

So I'd say the desire to protect oneself is inborn, even understandable, but it is not always moral.

Edited 2013-09-18 04:04 (UTC)

Hmm.

[Her manner is cool, inscrutable.]

But you have a moral obligation to defend others' lives.

[Armin feels like he's being tested. Fortunately, he's used to that. And he's not afraid to answer honestly.]

It's not as simple as that.

I am willing to lay down my life, but I must be willing to let others die if that's what's going to create the ultimately optimal outcome. [There is a bitterness in Armin's voice: he has already done it. He has sent squads to their death.]

You have to be willing to make sacrifices in war.

So here's my question. Why go to war?

Why?

[For a moment there's almost note of anger to Armin's voice, but he quickly controls it. She may be doing this just to provoke a reaction, though Armin can't understand why she would need to. He's been honest with her about everything, and remained true to his convictions.

It's too easy to jump to the conclusion that she simply doesn't understand, that she cannot. If she saw what he'd seen she would not ask 'why go to war'?]

Do you mean in a general way or do you mean myself, personally?

In a general way. Let's not get personal.

[Her smile is ambiguous and promises, perhaps, a tacit yet.]

In general, people go to war because either they have something to gain, because the alternative is ultimately worse than going to war, or because there is no alternative.

...I could probably make you a pretty good map, a visual approximation, with some napkins and the cups and so on. [Armin rubs his chin thoughtfully, a habit he hasn't realized he picked up from his grandfather.] I could talk about territory, and resources, and what happens to people who are either, over a long period of time or quite suddenly faced with a deficit of both. But you're so smart, do you really need me to explain it to you in that level of detail? [Armin gives the most angelic smile. It's his very best 'don't take me seriously I'm just a kid' smile, when before he was so serious.] I'm sure you don't lack the imagination... Which means for me to go on about it is sort of a waste of both our time, don't you think?

Edited 2013-09-28 07:30 (UTC)

Don't talk down to me.

[That's an order that doesn't have any rancor behind it, or even any real reprimand, but there's no question that it's an order; it's firm. And there's just the slightest tilt of her head to the side, a sharpening of the focus in her eyes, an utter vanishing of the smile: it's not yet anger, but it's the threat of anger. Tempestuous Sonya: it's not hard to stir her up.]

I couldn't give less of a shit about territory and resources. Especially for a place I've never been and will never go. You started out talking about moral imperatives; I'm challenging you on the basis of moral imperatives. Those reasons you listed have as much to do with morality as a trapped rat's bite has to do with courage.

[So she can smile at him like it's nothing, but she doesn't like it in return. At least he knows that's one button only to press at the right time.]

It's interesting that you asked me not to get personal and then pointed out you've never been and will never go to where I'm from. It may not be possible to argue for my war on your terms, nor could it fit into the morality with someone who's grown up with the options of schooling and espresso. Perhaps war is something far away and debatable where you are from, and how fortunate that must be for all of you.

But if you have two options - do nothing, and live your life in possible safety, or do something and hope it helps your survival of a species - can you honestly say doing nothing is the moral choice?

Inaction and complacency can and will be the death of humanity as a species. That is not a point that can be argued from my perspective.

Yeah, where I'm from, there's a psychopath preaching the gospel of the strong crowding at our southern border. We've lost half of the Jersey territories to him in the past five years. So.

[Her voice is clipped; she raises her eyebrows at him. It's probably not actually her place to get self-righteous about that, given that she's not a soldier and won't ever be; the fighting's nowhere near her actual doorstep. But there's nothing that rubs her the wrong way like someone who doesn't know anything about her going on about how fortunate she is. Or getting on his high horse about schooling and espresso, like she was born with some silver spoon in her mouth, like schooling didn't come through scholarships and espresso through getting a good job using her wits alone.]

But you're still not answering my question. You say we'll die as a species if we're complacent. Okay. Where's the moral question in that? Saving your own life, you said, isn't moral; why is saving your species?

I said acting to save only my life wasn't moral. That's not the same thing by a long stretch.

To act in one's own interest when there is an option to act in the interest of all is by nature a selfish act, and therefore immoral. Society exists because of mutual cooperation. It's not a perfect system, but it's mostly mutually beneficial. Our food, our clothes, the chairs we sit on were someone else's invention. To benefit from humanity's legacy and not make effort to preserve it - to take from those that came before without giving back - is not only wrong from a philosophical standpoint, it's outright stealing.

[Armin drums his fingertips on the table.]

Aside from that, I have trouble believing you genuinely believe that humanity isn't worth saving. So why ask me that? You wanted to hear why I think it is?

i think, well why not, then stop for a coffee

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